Hi All;
I
As a Helicopter flight control device...
Moderator: Moderators
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breedatrad
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 6:55 am
- Location: NW PA
Hi Brian,
I've always wanted to control RC vehicles with our devices. In fact, I was thinking of buying an RC helicopter this spring to work on it (I've been making that pledge for about 10 years now).
The hard part is converting the USB data into something useful to an RC controller. You could do all the electronics yourself, which sounds like a fun project, or contact one of the existing vendors...which sounds more practical. I'd think you'd want to feed a stabilization control system, rather than control individual heli parameters. Seems like a better way to prevent a smoking hole in the ground.
What I'd prefer is something that knows which way the heli is pointed in relation to my point of view, so when I say "go to the right" it always goes to MY right, not my left if it is pointing at me.
Jim
3Dx Software Development
I've always wanted to control RC vehicles with our devices. In fact, I was thinking of buying an RC helicopter this spring to work on it (I've been making that pledge for about 10 years now).
The hard part is converting the USB data into something useful to an RC controller. You could do all the electronics yourself, which sounds like a fun project, or contact one of the existing vendors...which sounds more practical. I'd think you'd want to feed a stabilization control system, rather than control individual heli parameters. Seems like a better way to prevent a smoking hole in the ground.
What I'd prefer is something that knows which way the heli is pointed in relation to my point of view, so when I say "go to the right" it always goes to MY right, not my left if it is pointing at me.
Jim
3Dx Software Development
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breedatrad
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 6:55 am
- Location: NW PA
Hi Jim;
That's cool. It's good to hear that someone else shares my ambition.
I've been flying airplanes since '76 and helis since '96 so I'm well versed in the problems of control reversal as orientation changes. Unfortunately, they're a fact of life unless you can come up with a way to sense orientation, relative to the pilot's fixed, ground position. At this point, you've achieved a closed-loop control system- something that hasn't been done before. Radio bandwidth limitations have made this type of control previously infeasable but the new 2.4GHz Spread Spectrum radios may solve this, as well. (We had 50 RC channels- Now there's 3000!)
There used to be such a thing as single-stick radios where you had a knob on top of a 2-axis joystick for control of the three basic flight functions (aileron, elevator and rudder). That this type of control system disappeared wasn't a big deal to the airplane flyers, but the heli pilots really missed out. The third (rotational) axis on top of the stick is a natural for heli tail rotor control but, single stick radios disappeared before helis became truly flyable. (Heli-specific engines, heading-hold gyro technology, digital, coreless servos, etc.)
www.endurance-rc.com/pctx.html already has a PC-to-RC Transmitter interface available for controlling robots, etc., by your computer, through an RC transmitter. It allows you to use a Windows joystick to control a robot, or whatever.
I want the Space Navigator to control a computer flight simulator application for practice PRIOR to trying it out with my real heli. Then, I want to be able to interface it DIRECTLY with my Futaba 9CHP transmitter for actual flying, without the computer connected. (Probably requiring some interface hardware and software, as you mentioned).
I'm excited, but I don't know who to ask for guidance/assistance.
Go to
http://video.helifreak.com/tmp/500e8cd8 ... nloadmedia
to see an AWESOME HELI VIDEO!
Brian
That's cool. It's good to hear that someone else shares my ambition.
I've been flying airplanes since '76 and helis since '96 so I'm well versed in the problems of control reversal as orientation changes. Unfortunately, they're a fact of life unless you can come up with a way to sense orientation, relative to the pilot's fixed, ground position. At this point, you've achieved a closed-loop control system- something that hasn't been done before. Radio bandwidth limitations have made this type of control previously infeasable but the new 2.4GHz Spread Spectrum radios may solve this, as well. (We had 50 RC channels- Now there's 3000!)
There used to be such a thing as single-stick radios where you had a knob on top of a 2-axis joystick for control of the three basic flight functions (aileron, elevator and rudder). That this type of control system disappeared wasn't a big deal to the airplane flyers, but the heli pilots really missed out. The third (rotational) axis on top of the stick is a natural for heli tail rotor control but, single stick radios disappeared before helis became truly flyable. (Heli-specific engines, heading-hold gyro technology, digital, coreless servos, etc.)
www.endurance-rc.com/pctx.html already has a PC-to-RC Transmitter interface available for controlling robots, etc., by your computer, through an RC transmitter. It allows you to use a Windows joystick to control a robot, or whatever.
I want the Space Navigator to control a computer flight simulator application for practice PRIOR to trying it out with my real heli. Then, I want to be able to interface it DIRECTLY with my Futaba 9CHP transmitter for actual flying, without the computer connected. (Probably requiring some interface hardware and software, as you mentioned).
I'm excited, but I don't know who to ask for guidance/assistance.
Go to
http://video.helifreak.com/tmp/500e8cd8 ... nloadmedia
to see an AWESOME HELI VIDEO!
Brian
Hi Brian,
I can't see that video
If you have a Windows program that uses a joystick, one of our customers created a driver for the SpaceNavigator that outputs joystick data (here)
Many people are using it. It appears to be relatively stable.
Jim
I can't see that video
If you have a Windows program that uses a joystick, one of our customers created a driver for the SpaceNavigator that outputs joystick data (here)
Many people are using it. It appears to be relatively stable.
Jim
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breedatrad
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 6:55 am
- Location: NW PA
Hmmm..
Is there a place where I can upload a copy of this video for all to see? It's 95MB (Windows Media Format).
The joystick driver may work for flying the computer simulator but I'll still need to come up with something for interfacing directly with the RC transmitter.
The Tx's (current) joystick pots feed analog info to an encoder board which converts it to digital info for (FM) radio transmission. I'm guessing that we could bypass the analog-to-digital conversion and supply digital inputs directly to the encoder's channel assignment section. I'm just not sure what kind of information to feed it yet.
Brian
Is there a place where I can upload a copy of this video for all to see? It's 95MB (Windows Media Format).
The joystick driver may work for flying the computer simulator but I'll still need to come up with something for interfacing directly with the RC transmitter.
The Tx's (current) joystick pots feed analog info to an encoder board which converts it to digital info for (FM) radio transmission. I'm guessing that we could bypass the analog-to-digital conversion and supply digital inputs directly to the encoder's channel assignment section. I'm just not sure what kind of information to feed it yet.
Brian
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breedatrad
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 6:55 am
- Location: NW PA
Part vs. View Portal Movement
Jim;
The difference between flying the "jet demo" and flying a real airplane or helicopter seems to be WHAT you're flying.
In real life; you're flying the model in 3D space from a fixed position. That's why we get control reversal when the aircraft is coming towards us.
The 3DConnexion device seems to fly the View Port. That's why the object on the screen always rolls to the right, with "right" input, regardless of view orientation. The parts stays still and you're "flying" around it.
Brian
The difference between flying the "jet demo" and flying a real airplane or helicopter seems to be WHAT you're flying.
In real life; you're flying the model in 3D space from a fixed position. That's why we get control reversal when the aircraft is coming towards us.
The 3DConnexion device seems to fly the View Port. That's why the object on the screen always rolls to the right, with "right" input, regardless of view orientation. The parts stays still and you're "flying" around it.
Brian
Hi Brian,
The jet demo (and all the rest of the apps) work the way they do because we specifically do the math to make that happen rather than the obvious roll, yaw, pitch mathematics. The same mathematics could be done for the real situation of controlling a vehicle in line of sight. It just takes info about the line of sight, and some code running on a microcontroller. That's version 3 though.
The first thing you probably want to do is get your SpaceNavigator hooked up to the simulator, then do the electronics to run the servos. Done well, you could give this Alan guy a run for his money without having to crater as many heli's as he probably has. Our devices always give people an unfair advantage over what others can learn given enough time, money and patience.
Jim
The jet demo (and all the rest of the apps) work the way they do because we specifically do the math to make that happen rather than the obvious roll, yaw, pitch mathematics. The same mathematics could be done for the real situation of controlling a vehicle in line of sight. It just takes info about the line of sight, and some code running on a microcontroller. That's version 3 though.
The first thing you probably want to do is get your SpaceNavigator hooked up to the simulator, then do the electronics to run the servos. Done well, you could give this Alan guy a run for his money without having to crater as many heli's as he probably has. Our devices always give people an unfair advantage over what others can learn given enough time, money and patience.
Jim
Well from my experiance there is HUDGE difference between flying computer simulation, actual cabbin simulation, aircraf model and real aircraft. In case of helos it is even more noticable.
I just got the controller yestarday so I will do my app today for different purpuses then helo but what I noticed taht axis are overlaping (meaning u can not trigger only one axis) which mygt be a problem for model helicopter (if u flew one u know it has tendency to flip over if there is a wind and u over incline/decline)
So if you would wish to fly ur model w/ controller i would say a) add axis fileter b) make sure that your heli has gyro
and a side note: if you wanna control it as Socket Base network connection then u can use 900Mhz 1Watt radios that will give you about 5km radius and lots of bandwith to have commands and video dend over.
If you need some engeeniring help i might help since im thingking to play around with jet model mayself, later on the summer
I just got the controller yestarday so I will do my app today for different purpuses then helo but what I noticed taht axis are overlaping (meaning u can not trigger only one axis) which mygt be a problem for model helicopter (if u flew one u know it has tendency to flip over if there is a wind and u over incline/decline)
So if you would wish to fly ur model w/ controller i would say a) add axis fileter b) make sure that your heli has gyro
and a side note: if you wanna control it as Socket Base network connection then u can use 900Mhz 1Watt radios that will give you about 5km radius and lots of bandwith to have commands and video dend over.
If you need some engeeniring help i might help since im thingking to play around with jet model mayself, later on the summer
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sammy bridges
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 am
Spacenavigator Controls
hi there Jim,
Yes, the spacenavigator is also getting popular in Belgium, also thanks to second life.
Now what I think as a marketing supervisor , I mean....what I would like to ask you is :
Please , please make a downloadable software programme or sell a package called robotics navigator. Make a RS323 or a USB controled box with 6 to 8 outputs on it. I/O .
Why ?
So we can all use the spacenavigator to control our robots. I have seen someone who made it work on the LEGO mindstorm robot and it is is really cool. i think you guys should make this for the public, I think you will not be aible to keep up selling them.....Like steve Jobs can't handle iphone sales
what is good !! Means it is popular.
If 3Dconnexion is not interested....please advice me how I can do this myself. Is there any software or small programme that makes it aible to move outputted I/O cables that listen to LIVE moving on the spacenavigator ?
Thanks in advance,
Sammy bridges
Yes, the spacenavigator is also getting popular in Belgium, also thanks to second life.
Now what I think as a marketing supervisor , I mean....what I would like to ask you is :
Please , please make a downloadable software programme or sell a package called robotics navigator. Make a RS323 or a USB controled box with 6 to 8 outputs on it. I/O .
Why ?
So we can all use the spacenavigator to control our robots. I have seen someone who made it work on the LEGO mindstorm robot and it is is really cool. i think you guys should make this for the public, I think you will not be aible to keep up selling them.....Like steve Jobs can't handle iphone sales
what is good !! Means it is popular.If 3Dconnexion is not interested....please advice me how I can do this myself. Is there any software or small programme that makes it aible to move outputted I/O cables that listen to LIVE moving on the spacenavigator ?
Thanks in advance,
Sammy bridges
jwick wrote:Hi Brian,
I've always wanted to control RC vehicles with our devices. In fact, I was thinking of buying an RC helicopter this spring to work on it (I've been making that pledge for about 10 years now).
The hard part is converting the USB data into something useful to an RC controller. You could do all the electronics yourself, which sounds like a fun project, or contact one of the existing vendors...which sounds more practical. I'd think you'd want to feed a stabilization control system, rather than control individual heli parameters. Seems like a better way to prevent a smoking hole in the ground.
What I'd prefer is something that knows which way the heli is pointed in relation to my point of view, so when I say "go to the right" it always goes to MY right, not my left if it is pointing at me.
Jim
3Dx Software Development
Please add also SKYPE to the messenger services. this is the best and most powerfull messenger in the world used by more then 68.000 CEO's, and used by more then 15.000.000 people worldwide.
Now there's an interesting idea. What line levels are needed on the outputs (Voltage, current src/sink requirements)?
Seems like a fairly simple project. One battery, one microcontroller that can read USB, with enough pinouts to generate what you want.
It would seem simple to build a PC-based prototype of it. You can output to the parallel port if that will provide enough power. You probably need to feed the outputs into transistors to meet your power requirements.
Seems like a fairly simple project. One battery, one microcontroller that can read USB, with enough pinouts to generate what you want.
It would seem simple to build a PC-based prototype of it. You can output to the parallel port if that will provide enough power. You probably need to feed the outputs into transistors to meet your power requirements.
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sammy bridges
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 am
To jwick
Well, the power needed on the outputs have to be for small electrnoic engines. maybe you can include the engines =).
Let me give you couple of examples to use it for.
1. Motion had (follow spot) for theathers (to follow the lead singer or actor).
2. A motion head controled by the cameraman, Tilt, pan, all....just like in Second life use. 'flycam'
3. Robotics movement. To walk forward , backwords, tilt body, roll etc....
4. Robotics for medical use . or labratory container.
5. R/C helicopter (pull up), push down , left , right, outputs of the little box connected to the RC remote.
6. Wheelchair for desabled people, pull up.....seat rises, push down , seat lowers, forward, backwords, left right en the tilt use and zoom could be used for Tilt = to move the arm with the mounth blower control straw to do other functions, Zoom = for controling the neckstand up and down.
etc etc.....
Please make this box, and for the idea, send me the beta one loool
Let me give you couple of examples to use it for.
1. Motion had (follow spot) for theathers (to follow the lead singer or actor).
2. A motion head controled by the cameraman, Tilt, pan, all....just like in Second life use. 'flycam'
3. Robotics movement. To walk forward , backwords, tilt body, roll etc....
4. Robotics for medical use . or labratory container.
5. R/C helicopter (pull up), push down , left , right, outputs of the little box connected to the RC remote.
6. Wheelchair for desabled people, pull up.....seat rises, push down , seat lowers, forward, backwords, left right en the tilt use and zoom could be used for Tilt = to move the arm with the mounth blower control straw to do other functions, Zoom = for controling the neckstand up and down.
etc etc.....
Please make this box, and for the idea, send me the beta one
loool jwick wrote:Now there's an interesting idea. What line levels are needed on the outputs (Voltage, current src/sink requirements)?
Seems like a fairly simple project. One battery, one microcontroller that can read USB, with enough pinouts to generate what you want.
It would seem simple to build a PC-based prototype of it. You can output to the parallel port if that will provide enough power. You probably need to feed the outputs into transistors to meet your power requirements.
Please add also SKYPE to the messenger services. this is the best and most powerfull messenger in the world used by more then 68.000 CEO's, and used by more then 15.000.000 people worldwide.
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sammy bridges
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 am
Hi Alexus,
Well thanks, that would be nice.
I'm not into robotics or technical stuff.....I'm just building something where I need this for.
but the motors have to run very smooth , i mean very very smooth.... the spacenavigator works perfect , so i need the engines to work as fine. Just like in second life (virtual world) use.
So anytime you can make this happen, please contact me and tell me the cost.
Thanks in advance,
Sammy Bridges
Well thanks, that would be nice.
I'm not into robotics or technical stuff.....I'm just building something where I need this for.
but the motors have to run very smooth , i mean very very smooth.... the spacenavigator works perfect , so i need the engines to work as fine. Just like in second life (virtual world) use.
So anytime you can make this happen, please contact me and tell me the cost.
Thanks in advance,
Sammy Bridges
Please add also SKYPE to the messenger services. this is the best and most powerfull messenger in the world used by more then 68.000 CEO's, and used by more then 15.000.000 people worldwide.
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sammy bridges
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 am
Ok
ok, but i need it for a camera moving head. So with one hand i can control the camera to every postion the space navigator moves. Tilt, pan, left , right , up and down and rotate. I do not need the servo's. Just one piece, as an example so i know what to buy over here. (less weight cost). We do not have a radio shaxk in Belgium (pitty though ).
So i just need the smal box and wires coming out of the box with labels on where to connect them.
(so a small box where I can connect my spacenavigator on, and on the other side the wires to connect to my servo's. Ow , and an on and off button....lol
Probably this device has to be powered with a transfo.
i hope you understand what i mean.
Let me know the price for this one.
Cheers
).So i just need the smal box and wires coming out of the box with labels on where to connect them.
(so a small box where I can connect my spacenavigator on, and on the other side the wires to connect to my servo's. Ow , and an on and off button....lol
Probably this device has to be powered with a transfo.
i hope you understand what i mean.
Let me know the price for this one.
Cheers
Please add also SKYPE to the messenger services. this is the best and most powerfull messenger in the world used by more then 68.000 CEO's, and used by more then 15.000.000 people worldwide.