Support for more than one product of the same type...

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Magic Man
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Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Magic Man »

I have two Navigators, both can be used without issue on the same setup, even with my SP Pro as well (if I choose) but the software only 'sees' the one navigator and doesn't differentiate between them as far as setup is concerned.

I'm pretty sure it is aware of them individually though since a calibration will flash the LEDs of each in turn rather than at the same time.

Would be good if the software could enumerate each individual recognised device rather than just product type...?
Phil999
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Phil999 »

Magic Man wrote:I'm pretty sure it is aware of them individually
the driver (service) obviously is because of what you say about the calibration process, but when you take a look at the profile xml, you see that there's one entry for one device only. I guess it would need a rather complicated rewrite of the driver to implement enumerated devices. And we must admit that it is very rare to have two identical devices attached to the same computer.

But the SPP + SN combination works nicely. Isn't this the better setup than one single SPP (machine A) and two SN's (machine B)?
Space Navigator x2, Space Pilot, Space Pilot Pro, SpaceMouse Enterprise
Magic Man
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Magic Man »

Phil999 wrote:I guess it would need a rather complicated rewrite of the driver to implement enumerated devices.
Depends I suppose on how they're enumerated in the first case. The calibration routine is obviously enumerating through the UID's.
And we must admit that it is very rare to have two identical devices attached to the same computer.
Agreed :D
But the SPP + SN combination works nicely. Isn't this the better setup than one single SPP (machine A) and two SN's (machine B)?
Yes, but when you have one SPP and two SN's, then it seems a waste to leave the other one on its own...

...and that's before Mr Enterprise joins the family :D - I need more hands!
Phil999
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Phil999 »

in that case you probably won't use two Navigators on one computer, and probably don't wish to do so anymore. You likely will use Enterprise + Navigator on one machine, and SPP + Navigator on another machine, if dual 3dx controlling is what you need.

General thoughts about using multiple devices: ergonomically it doesn't make much sense. The hand that operates the 3dx device is supposed to rest on the controller most of the time. But it's a great addition to support multiple devices, it was introduced some years ago during the beta driver test phase. It's really great the developers provided this feature, thanks a lot again.

I can imagine situations where it could make sense. One can split up tasks. For example in a 3D application where the main controller is used for standart 3D viewport actions, the second controller could be used for simple arrow up/down/left/right which is not available for the main controller because that one is assigned to 3D mouse actions. Or for games where the main controller is assigned to WSAD, and the second controller to arrows for menu interaction. Or something else, I don't know. Not a gamer myself, although I would like to have more time for gaming and flight sims, it's so much fun.

Some people who have followed the development of 3DConnexion may have started with a Space Navigator many years ago. A very powerful controller for an incredibly low price (I don't remember exactly, but I think I paid about 70-80 SFR, which is really not much for a quality dynamic analogue 6-axis controller). For these people it was just a logical step to buy a new model after they were released. Therefore one can assume that there are a number of people who have a modern version with more buttons, and an earlier version (which still works perfectly well after all these years; which only proves the quality of the products).

Now, what to do with this old controller? Use it on a different computer. Attach to the children's or spouse's computer, just for scrolling webpages and pdf's, not for 3D. A task these controllers perform very well, too. Or use it as a second controller, next to the main one. I think such a second controller can have its purpose, although I have not found such a purpose in my daily work myself yet.
Space Navigator x2, Space Pilot, Space Pilot Pro, SpaceMouse Enterprise
Magic Man
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Magic Man »

There is also the case though that someone may have use for two controllers in their work flow and the cheapest way to achieve that would be two Navigators so, outside of my use case, it may actually be something that would in fact be a potential for someone and more obtainable than a Navigator and a second device which would be more expensive again.

As for me, outside Daz Studio then Elite Dangerous is taking up my time and a 3d puck is simply excellent for 6 dof thruster control as well as 6 dof galaxy map navigation and 6 dof view inside the cockpit. Now, with the latest update they are adding 6 dof camera control then I can use all the axis that are available alongside stick, throttle, pedals and G19 keypad :D
jwick
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by jwick »

The driver does address each attached device individually. The GUI is the one that combines them together. This is just a GUI issue.

The only problem I have is identifying the individual devices. I think we wrote about this during the 3DxWare "7" beta.
How do I know which SN, should do what?
I can remember which USB port you plugged each into? And if you move it? Should the functionality move with it?
How about "you are now assigning the actions of the device with the blinking LEDs"?

We now are adding serial numbers to the devices, so I can uniquely identify the devices as you move them around.

It's just a UI issue. 3DxService has no problem with it. There is a place to store the "unique device identification" information in the cfg files (but no I haven't implemented it yet).

I think multiple devices has plenty of promise. One for translations; one for rotations. One for colors. One for sound. One for robot control; the other for viewing the simulation of the robot cell. One for the pilot view; one for the wingman view. Sometimes it makes sense to reach for a different device not a menu to reconfigure your one and only device. IMHO.

I've left the door open by allowing you to assign different types of devices to different tasks. It's a small matter of extending that to the same types of devices. Now the unique identifiers is the device type. It can just as easily be the serial number or USB port.
Magic Man
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Magic Man »

Seem to remember it was noted during beta 7. Identification using the leds to signal each device, a bit like windows identifying multiple monitors by numbers, and a simple numeric against the device in the list would suffice. Perhaps if there is more than one device of the same type then turn the leds off on the others or flash the currently active one when changing settings?

Would be a welcome addition to the software and allow us collectors and input device fans to use all that is available. Just got an Enterprise so that's four pucks available to my PC now - something like Elite Dangerous could easily make use of them all.
Phil999
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Phil999 »

jwick wrote: It's just a UI issue. 3DxService has no problem with it. There is a place to store the "unique device identification" information in the cfg files (but no I haven't implemented it yet).
so if I understand correctly, it wouldn't be as difficult as I presumed. Next to the device identification you would only need to add a new entry for the device serial number.
jwick wrote:I think multiple devices has plenty of promise. One for translations; one for rotations. One for colors. One for sound. One for robot control; the other for viewing the simulation of the robot cell. One for the pilot view; one for the wingman view. Sometimes it makes sense to reach for a different device not a menu to reconfigure your one and only device. IMHO.
I think you are right about that, as well as Magic Man. I read this recent thread about controlling a robot, too, and if for example a robot has an adjustable camera or sensor/crane extensions there is a need for a second multi-axis controller. When we look at recent developments in robotics it makes even more sense. One puck for movement, one puck for orientation/focus/extension. As an example, a toy called Sphero BB-8 has one 2-axis controller for movement. The second 1-axis controller is for direction and can be replaced with single 'macro' commands, but not at the same time. This shows that a single input device is limited (although the GUI could be improved to provide all parameters at the same time).

I also remember where I mapped too much axis actions for a certain application, and had to reduce this axis mapping because it was too difficult to learn in muscle memory. Sometimes it is better to set aside one action in favour of usability. Then a second controller could be advantageous.

Also in flight sims it is often the case that you steer the airplane with the joystick and control the camera view with the POV hat. Two 4-6 axis inputs at the same time, which is a bit problematic in certain situations. That's why head tracking solutions are popular for flight sims.
Space Navigator x2, Space Pilot, Space Pilot Pro, SpaceMouse Enterprise
Phil999
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Phil999 »

off topic, I also like DAZStudio 4.9 (beta). With Iray GPU rendering supporting recent Geforce cards, it is just fun to quickly test render obj and fbx files with such speed.

And with full support for 3dx devices. A very good combination.
Space Navigator x2, Space Pilot, Space Pilot Pro, SpaceMouse Enterprise
Magic Man
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Re: Support for more than one product of the same type...

Post by Magic Man »

I've switched to Daz 4.8 after using Poser for a few years, and as you say 4.9 now supports Pascal based nVidia cards for iRay rendering and can give impressive results.

Wish the ability to switch between object and camera modes for the puck weren't behind a menu though and could be achieved on the fly as it could in Poser.

The 3Dconnexion devices are brilliant for many fields outside of the traditional CAD environments they are mainly marketed at. I know they are used as video controllers, where you may want more than one and for those of use who want as much control in some games as possible - flight sims yes. Elite Dangerous can support a 6dof for pilot view, thrusters and now independent camera view (as well as 3d galaxy views) so multiple devices can be put to good use.

And, as you say, even limiting the two sets of three primary directions over a couple of pucks rather than a single device may be more advantageous and useable in some cases for better control - I can certainly see a role for a 3D device alongside the mouse as well as under the opposite hand, maybe some sort of combined device, a trackball with built in puck maybe? I tried something similar with a ***** 3D mouse which has three thumb sticks for 3d control and I can see the use case.
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