Fred's comment is a simple statement of fact. It does not put SolidWorks on the spot. We do not place the "blame" on SolidWorks or on any one else. There is no "blame" to be assign to.
With the release of version 2008, SolidWorks dropped support for "old style MFC extension add-ins". They gave their partners advance warning of the change. It was well planned and effectively deployed by SolidWorks.
With that information, 3Dconnexion changed the SolidWorks add-in to implement a SolidWorks add-in specification fully supported by SolidWorks 2008.
All current supported devices had their software updated in time for the release of SW2008.
At that time, serial devices were no longer in "extended support". Consequently, their software was not updated.
Spaceball 5000 serial with SW 2008
Moderator: Moderators
Ngnomes,
Ok so if SolidWorks made a change was it due to partnership agreements with 3Dconnexion? According to another moderator's post, it sounds like the change was originated from 3Dconnexion.
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Hi jalcad
3Dconnexion doesn't support serial devices under Windows any more. Please upgrade to an USB device.
_________________
agoenczi
3Dconnexion Support
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This is all besides the point. 3Dconnexion has the ability to achieve the older driver, or build an updated driver for the serial mouse.
This is a loosing argument, as achieving the old driver or fixing a new serial driver will likely cost 3Dconnexion new purchases from existing customers. But customers familiar with this topic, and your stance on the situation will also likely cost 3Dconnexion in future recommendations to new potential customers.
In the end a great device is shelved before its time.
Ok so if SolidWorks made a change was it due to partnership agreements with 3Dconnexion? According to another moderator's post, it sounds like the change was originated from 3Dconnexion.
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Hi jalcad
3Dconnexion doesn't support serial devices under Windows any more. Please upgrade to an USB device.
_________________
agoenczi
3Dconnexion Support
------------------
This is all besides the point. 3Dconnexion has the ability to achieve the older driver, or build an updated driver for the serial mouse.
This is a loosing argument, as achieving the old driver or fixing a new serial driver will likely cost 3Dconnexion new purchases from existing customers. But customers familiar with this topic, and your stance on the situation will also likely cost 3Dconnexion in future recommendations to new potential customers.
In the end a great device is shelved before its time.
No. To the best of our knowledge, SolidWorks alone made that decision.JRICHTER wrote:Ok so if SolidWorks made a change was it due to partnership agreements with 3Dconnexion?
3Dconnexion no longer actively supports serial devices. That is irrespective of application. Software for those devices is still available for download but development is terminated.JRICHTER wrote:According to another moderator's post, it sounds like the change was originated from 3Dconnexion.
-----------------
Hi jalcad
3Dconnexion doesn't support serial devices under Windows any more. Please upgrade to an USB device.
_________________
agoenczi
3Dconnexion Support
------------------
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. That's why 3Dconnexion has this Forum. It is an opportunity for all involved to make their point of view clear to everyone.JRICHTER wrote:This is all besides the point. 3Dconnexion has the ability to achieve the older driver, or build an updated driver for the serial mouse.
This is a loosing argument, as achieving the old driver or fixing a new serial driver will likely cost 3Dconnexion new purchases from existing customers. But customers familiar with this topic, and your stance on the situation will also likely cost 3Dconnexion in future recommendations to new potential customers.
Others will make their own judgement and that's -- quite plainly -- just great.
These days, computers are being sold without serial ports. 3Dconnexion is an technology company and we will continue to move forward. We will not be hampered by obsolescence.JRICHTER wrote:In the end a great device is shelved before its time.
But people are still using computers that have serial ports and serial devices hooked to those ports and not always buying new computers when new software comes out. Why not continue to support your existing customer base with updated drivers for those that still use serial devices. And you can still buy serial port cards for computers that don't come with a serial port. So serial ports ARE NOT OBSOLETE. In fact MOST NEW CNC machines require a serial port for comunications between the computer and machine. So if serial ports are obsolete then so would CNC machines. So what do you have to loose by continuing to support serial spaceballs besides current users.
Looks like they're gonna keep 3.4.2 to themselves. 3.2.2 is available in the archived area but 3.4.2 is still MIA. Does the "hack" using 3.2.2 work for 2008.
It does appear that the latest driver 3.5.6 will continue to work using this "hacked"method. Just remember to install 2.8.2 complete and then install 3.5.6 BUT ONLY install the Solidworks addin.
It does appear that the latest driver 3.5.6 will continue to work using this "hacked"method. Just remember to install 2.8.2 complete and then install 3.5.6 BUT ONLY install the Solidworks addin.
What this and many other posts have proven is that there is an incredible level of incompetence when it comes to driver updates with regards to certain devices. (edit: see post below for an apology for accusing the developers of this issue)
Had the drivers been written properly then the interface between driver and package could have changed as much as it likes as the back end (i.e. windows communicating with the device) should be irrelevant. The application should never need to know what interface the device uses. The whole idea is that the package communicates with the driver and then the driver communicates with the device.
It should work like this... Device ---> Windows ---> Package ---> Windows ---> Device
It should only ever be this... Device ---> Package ---> Device if the package natively supports the device. (like Poser7)
The argument 3D Con-nexion are putting forward here is simply nonsense. Packages cannot stop supporting a device if the device is kept behind a correctly written set of drivers because it won't know what device is being used. It won't care what device is being used as long as the right controller messages are being passed. This is proven by the Solidworks hack jalcad found and is a clear indication of the intentions of 3d Con-nexion. If your argument was correct, this wouldn't work.
Maybe instead of trying to fleece your customers for more money, you could try asking your driver writers to put back the #DEFINE that lets them build the serial versions of the drivers. But that wouldn't make as much money as forcing people to buy new hardware would it? All you are doing here is making the statement...
"we're ripping you off, we don't care, buy new hardware so we can rip you off again later".
If your hardware was as cheap as your excuses it wouldn't be so bad but $800 to replace the 2 devices I use??? I wouldn't give you $8 while you have this attitude.
Maybe you could contact e-frontier as they provide support for the serial devices (in Poser 7) without running your driver software and without asking for the device type. It seems quite obvious that they are aware of the correct way to implement the interface between software and hardware without resorting to excuses, they could probably teach you a thing or two.
I can just imagine Microsoft saying "we're going to stop supporting PS2 devices because motherboards don't have PS2 ports on them anymore". That's basically what you're saying and I am sure that you can appreciate how stupid it sounds when you consider that statement.
Had the drivers been written properly then the interface between driver and package could have changed as much as it likes as the back end (i.e. windows communicating with the device) should be irrelevant. The application should never need to know what interface the device uses. The whole idea is that the package communicates with the driver and then the driver communicates with the device.
It should work like this... Device ---> Windows ---> Package ---> Windows ---> Device
It should only ever be this... Device ---> Package ---> Device if the package natively supports the device. (like Poser7)
The argument 3D Con-nexion are putting forward here is simply nonsense. Packages cannot stop supporting a device if the device is kept behind a correctly written set of drivers because it won't know what device is being used. It won't care what device is being used as long as the right controller messages are being passed. This is proven by the Solidworks hack jalcad found and is a clear indication of the intentions of 3d Con-nexion. If your argument was correct, this wouldn't work.
Maybe instead of trying to fleece your customers for more money, you could try asking your driver writers to put back the #DEFINE that lets them build the serial versions of the drivers. But that wouldn't make as much money as forcing people to buy new hardware would it? All you are doing here is making the statement...
"we're ripping you off, we don't care, buy new hardware so we can rip you off again later".
If your hardware was as cheap as your excuses it wouldn't be so bad but $800 to replace the 2 devices I use??? I wouldn't give you $8 while you have this attitude.
Maybe you could contact e-frontier as they provide support for the serial devices (in Poser 7) without running your driver software and without asking for the device type. It seems quite obvious that they are aware of the correct way to implement the interface between software and hardware without resorting to excuses, they could probably teach you a thing or two.
I can just imagine Microsoft saying "we're going to stop supporting PS2 devices because motherboards don't have PS2 ports on them anymore". That's basically what you're saying and I am sure that you can appreciate how stupid it sounds when you consider that statement.
Last edited by LeeC22 on Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just to update and prove everything I said above... well actually, not quite. I accused 3D Con-nexion of leaving part of the software out of the drivers deliberately... in fact, to some extents, it is worse.
First, I will openly apologise for accusing the driver writers of incompetence, it is quite clear that the drivers work. It is obviously the people who are trying to deceive the customers that are at fault. As a software developer myself, I know how easy it is to blame the developers when something goes wrong... I guess you don't expect honest developers to be working for the kind of company, that makes it look like it is the developers fault. I think I would be resigning right about now if I worked somewhere like this.
Now to my findings... until this gets deleted.
By using the same method as jalcad did with Solidworks, I now have my SERIAL 4000FLX working in Max 9 and Max 2008 using the latest plugins (not the drivers, just the plugins!!!) on this site for the Spaceball 5000USB. This is using the plugins that 3D Con-nexions clearly stated did not support the serial device.
I am sorry but this is something worthy of a mention to some of the major tech and news sites. To make this kind of claim when the device clearly still works is lies in the worst form. This shows that you are deliberately misleading customers in order to get them to purchase new hardware. I will certainly be posting this on the major art forums that I frequent, that's for sure. I can imagine a few second hand 4000FLX's hitting EBay that didn't need to be sold.
I am going to do some heavy testing to make sure all the features work (as I think one set of people giving misleading advice is sufficient) and if they do, then I think you're going to have some very unhappy customers... and some serious explaining to do. I actually wonder what the legal situation is regarding feedng misleading information to the public to force them to unnecessarily upgrade is?
And do you know what the beauty of all this is, it has been done via a legal method using your own installer, I didn't even need to hack anything, your software did it all for me.
Thanks to that and jalcad's idea, my device will remain supported for at least the next year and I save my money too
Thanks jalcad, I owe you one.
First, I will openly apologise for accusing the driver writers of incompetence, it is quite clear that the drivers work. It is obviously the people who are trying to deceive the customers that are at fault. As a software developer myself, I know how easy it is to blame the developers when something goes wrong... I guess you don't expect honest developers to be working for the kind of company, that makes it look like it is the developers fault. I think I would be resigning right about now if I worked somewhere like this.
Now to my findings... until this gets deleted.
By using the same method as jalcad did with Solidworks, I now have my SERIAL 4000FLX working in Max 9 and Max 2008 using the latest plugins (not the drivers, just the plugins!!!) on this site for the Spaceball 5000USB. This is using the plugins that 3D Con-nexions clearly stated did not support the serial device.
I am sorry but this is something worthy of a mention to some of the major tech and news sites. To make this kind of claim when the device clearly still works is lies in the worst form. This shows that you are deliberately misleading customers in order to get them to purchase new hardware. I will certainly be posting this on the major art forums that I frequent, that's for sure. I can imagine a few second hand 4000FLX's hitting EBay that didn't need to be sold.
I am going to do some heavy testing to make sure all the features work (as I think one set of people giving misleading advice is sufficient) and if they do, then I think you're going to have some very unhappy customers... and some serious explaining to do. I actually wonder what the legal situation is regarding feedng misleading information to the public to force them to unnecessarily upgrade is?
And do you know what the beauty of all this is, it has been done via a legal method using your own installer, I didn't even need to hack anything, your software did it all for me.
Thanks to that and jalcad's idea, my device will remain supported for at least the next year and I save my money too
Thanks jalcad, I owe you one.
Hi LeeC22,
It will not. Why should it be?Now to my findings... until this gets deleted.
We do not create "artificial" barriers in our code but -- do note -- we cannot guarantee that the interfaces between the plug-ins and the driver will remain static in time.And do you know what the beauty of all this is, it has been done via a legal method using your own installer, I didn't even need to hack anything, your software did it all for me.
Just a followup with 3DConnexions support and reasoning for doing away with serial devices.
"These days, computers are being sold without serial ports. 3Dconnexion is an technology company and we will continue to move forward. We will not be hampered by obsolescence."
You stated that computers are being sold WITHOUT serial ports. I just purchesed a BRAND NEW DELL Precision 4300 LAPTOP and guess what. IT STILL COMES WITH A SERIAL PORT. So your reasoning for abandoning those serial devices IS BOGUS. Computers STILL COME WITH SERIAL ports so it would be beneficial to continue to support this technology.
"These days, computers are being sold without serial ports. 3Dconnexion is an technology company and we will continue to move forward. We will not be hampered by obsolescence."
You stated that computers are being sold WITHOUT serial ports. I just purchesed a BRAND NEW DELL Precision 4300 LAPTOP and guess what. IT STILL COMES WITH A SERIAL PORT. So your reasoning for abandoning those serial devices IS BOGUS. Computers STILL COME WITH SERIAL ports so it would be beneficial to continue to support this technology.
Jalcad has a good point- we have replaced EVERY computer in our CAD department with new Dell computers over the last year- they ALL have serial ports with Spaceballs attached (~15 computers with 10 Spaceballs). That equates to about $5000 worth of Spaceballs that are no longer supported.jalcad wrote:Just a followup with 3DConnexions support and reasoning for doing away with serial devices.
"These days, computers are being sold without serial ports. 3Dconnexion is an technology company and we will continue to move forward. We will not be hampered by obsolescence."
You stated that computers are being sold WITHOUT serial ports. I just purchesed a BRAND NEW DELL Precision 4300 LAPTOP and guess what. IT STILL COMES WITH A SERIAL PORT. So your reasoning for abandoning those serial devices IS BOGUS. Computers STILL COME WITH SERIAL ports so it would be beneficial to continue to support this technology.
We are good for this year as the current workaround is working for us now with SW2008. However, I'm sure we will have to give in by next year and shell out $$$ to buy the next version of controller as these won't work with SW2009 without support from 3dConnexion.
Just for reference:
Despite not being "officially" supported, I've been able to get three Spaceball 3003C's (Serial) up and running with SW 2008, using their existing drivers (version"3-6-3"? dated from back in 2004), and using the SW plug-in-only from the Spaceball 5000 USB driver file (version 3.5.6 is currently on the 3DConnexion 'site).
It's worked very well for me.
Also used the same set-up to get a 5000-Serial working with SW 2008.
Just thought I
Despite not being "officially" supported, I've been able to get three Spaceball 3003C's (Serial) up and running with SW 2008, using their existing drivers (version"3-6-3"? dated from back in 2004), and using the SW plug-in-only from the Spaceball 5000 USB driver file (version 3.5.6 is currently on the 3DConnexion 'site).
It's worked very well for me.
Also used the same set-up to get a 5000-Serial working with SW 2008.
Just thought I