Space Mouse as a musical instrument

Questions and answers about 3Dconnexion devices on Windows.

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RobinFinderson
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Space Mouse as a musical instrument

Post by RobinFinderson »

I love my SpacePilot for 3D work, but I think it would also make an amazing musical instrument. What we need is a generic MIDI driver for all Space Mouse products, so we can map the various axes to musical functions in programs like Reason.

My SpacePilot would make an excellent digital Theremin. Being able to map axes for pans, fades, pitch modulation and digital 'scratching' would be so much fun.

Come on 3dConnexion, make it happen!

With love and adoration for an amazing product that has yet to see its full potential,

R.F.
dkosburn
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Post by dkosburn »

"We provide an easy to use SDK for companies to add support for our devices to their software, so contact their development"

Canned response incoming in 3...2...1...


People have been clamoring for a generic HID driver for the 3dconnexion devices for quite some time and unfortunately all we get is similar to the above. It might be time to try appealing to the parent company, Logitech?

Cheers,
-D
RobinFinderson
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Post by RobinFinderson »

I can imagine most 3D applications would eventually come around and create support for their products, but for music apps this isn't even on the radar.

You want to know how fast a SpaceMouse would get picked up by bustling DJ & electronic music scene? Answer, really fast, if it was as easy as mapping functions to axes.

Few things would be better for marketing than images of DJ Shadow standing before a glowing blue array of Space Navigators, mixing up some fun and funk (of course this would also require the ability to use multiple Navigators on the same computer).
ettore
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Post by ettore »

dkosburn wrote:People have been clamoring for a generic HID driver for the 3dconnexion devices for quite some time and unfortunately all we get is similar to the above. It might be time to try appealing to the parent company, Logitech?
Actually, all our (recent) devices are HID devices, so whoever relies on HID APIs is ready to go and implement whatever app.
ettore pasquini
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ettore
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Post by ettore »

RobinFinderson wrote:I can imagine most 3D applications would eventually come around and create support for their products, but for music apps this isn't even on the radar.

You want to know how fast a SpaceMouse would get picked up by bustling DJ & electronic music scene? Answer, really fast, if it was as easy as mapping functions to axes.

Few things would be better for marketing than images of DJ Shadow standing before a glowing blue array of Space Navigators, mixing up some fun and funk (of course this would also require the ability to use multiple Navigators on the same computer).
Hi Robin, I agree with you wholeheartedly, I think our devices could be cool controllers in the music realm. It would make for a very expressive controller.

I know this is a Windows forum, but some developers are starting to see the potential, albeit in the Mac community so far. Have a look at OSCulator:

http://www.osculator.net (I was showing this at MacWorld last January)

and also MIDI Navigator:

http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia ... ator.shtml
http://www.bbox.tv/snmidi.html
ettore pasquini
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Smiler
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Post by Smiler »

AAARRRGGHHHH!

Again and again YOUR CUSTOMERS ask for a generic driver and again and again you point them to other software houses to do YOUR JOB. Can't you see that we don't just want to use the controller in specific applications? So you produce an API, great for high end apps like CAD etc. that benefit from having a driver tailored for specific functions but your customers want more, we want both worlds, God knows we paid enough for them.

What really gets me is the sheer arrogance of the way 3Dx folks reply to queries like the original poster made, saying what a great idea it is but pointing them to some softco that is never going to come up with support but always ignoring the "why can't 3Dx write us a driver" bit. What are you guys afraid of, success?

Sorry for the strong language but you have to see it from our side. You people come across at least to me and others I know as very arrogant. We can't see it from your side because you never tell what it is, i.e. WHY can we not have the driver? Just always ignoring that question will not make it go away.
Regards, Jeff.
ettore
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Post by ettore »

Smiler wrote:AAARRRGGHHHH!

Again and again YOUR CUSTOMERS ask for a generic driver and again and again you point them to other software houses to do YOUR JOB. Can't you see that we don't just want to use the controller in specific applications? So you produce an API, great for high end apps like CAD etc.
I am not sure I understand what you mean, but let me clarify as best as I can.
We have at least 2 APIs with a developer can access our device: one is our SDK, built on top of our driver (that comes with the device). That's a specific API tailored for our device.
Then you have standard interfaces supported by the system that our device complies to: HID APIs, and on windows you can also use DirectInput if you like that.
Then: all of these APIs are NOT just for CAD applications, they are generic APIs that just read the status of the device.
Smiler wrote:that benefit from having a driver tailored for specific functions but your customers want more, we want both worlds, God knows we paid enough for them.

What really gets me is the sheer arrogance of the way 3Dx folks reply to queries like the original poster made, saying what a great idea it is but pointing them to some softco that is never going to come up with support but always ignoring the "why can't 3Dx write us a driver" bit. What are you guys afraid of, success?

Sorry for the strong language but you have to see it from our side. You people come across at least to me and others I know as very arrogant.
If you read arrogance in my words, I apologize and I can assure you it was not my intention. Really. I am just trying to respond to questions as best as I can.

I hear you: you want to use the device in all applications you see a usage for. And I'd want that too! But you have to understand that this is not a 2D mouse, whose support is deeply integrated into any OS and any application developer can rely on and assume every user has it.

So, let me briefly explain how it works from our side (engineering wise): in order to use the data our devices sends to the computer there needs to be an application able to receive them and use them. This step is not trivial. It requires changing the application because unless an application is built with support for 6DOF inputs, it's just going to ignore them. That's why we insist on the SDK and the other system frameworks (HID, DirectInput) and we talk to 3rd parties developers.
Smiler wrote:We can't see it from your side because you never tell what it is, i.e. WHY can we not have the driver? Just always ignoring that question will not make it go away.
I hope I explained how it is from our side. Rest assured we have never ignored the question. :)
ettore pasquini
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Post by votan »

LOL... so you can't do what a hobby programmer already did!? The rbc9 driver works fine.. just not under 64 bit systems like mine.... he even provided the source... so come on... take a look at how he did it and then do what you programmers are getting payed for.... write a working genric driver.
Just read your discribtion of your spacenavigator again.... "and we are adding new applications all the time!" what a joke.... you only add support for new applications very very rarely.... and in most other cases (basically all) you refer to "give our sdk to the vendor of software x....." and so no support for software x will ever be provided.....
The devices you have are great.... but without a generic driver they are just there to look good on the desk. Really.... you can do it! I know it! You just have to do it!
Phaedron
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Previously, on the 3DConnexion forums

Post by Phaedron »

ettore wrote:
Smiler wrote:AAARRRGGHHHH!

Again and again YOUR CUSTOMERS ask for a generic driver and again and again you point them to other software houses to do YOUR JOB. Can't you see that we don't just want to use the controller in specific applications? So you produce an API, great for high end apps like CAD etc.
I am not sure I understand what you mean, but let me clarify as best as I can.
Dear Ettore,

Excuse some of the more short-tempered members of our little community here. They feel they have been kept on a leash by some of the regular forum moderators. Therefore they might seem a little rabid to someone who hasn't kept up with the multitude of threads about this subject.

I'll try to explain what has been going on:

A lot of forum members and SpaceNavigator users, including myself, have been clamoring for a generic driver to greatly expand the uses of the 3DConnexion line of products. Such a driver should give options to map the Spacenavigator axis and buttons to Joystick axis, Mouse movement and Key presses and save this to a program specific profile.

This way end users can adapt the use of the Space Navigatior functions themselves, without any need for software adjustments from either 3DConnexion or their programs manufacturer.

For the Mac such a program, ControllerMate, has been written by a third party developer, although its not directly targeted at 3DConnexion products but all types of Apple controllers, due to thier highly generic implementation on OS X.

In the end, a community member named RBC9 wrote such a program for Windows, which works very well, but not under all Windows Operating Systems, like XP64, and Vista 32/64 bits. RBC9 lacked the time, knowledge and resources to make those. Even if he would have been able to, due to Vista Driver signing such unofficial driver would have to be started with numerous hacks to accept it, and would need to be reactivated on each bootup.

RBC9 has kindly donated the source code for his program, and would love for someone to follow up and finish his work, preferably officially through 3DConnexion.

It has been months since this work has been released (See viewtopic.php?t=336), but up to now no-one has been able to finish it, and the moderators keep answering requests for a generic driver with a standard "If you want a program to support our products, ask their developers".

What we want, plain and simple is a program like that made by RBC9, released and supported by 3DConnexion, running on XP/XP64 and Vista.

Help us, Obi-wan Ettore, you're our only hope. :wink: [/url]
Smiler
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Re: Previously, on the 3DConnexion forums

Post by Smiler »

Phaedron wrote:
ettore wrote:
Smiler wrote:AAARRRGGHHHH!

Again and again YOUR CUSTOMERS ask for a generic driver and again and again you point them to other software houses to do YOUR JOB. Can't you see that we don't just want to use the controller in specific applications? So you produce an API, great for high end apps like CAD etc.
I am not sure I understand what you mean, but let me clarify as best as I can.
Dear Ettore,

Excuse some of the more short-tempered members of our little community here. They feel they have been kept on a leash by some of the regular forum moderators. Therefore they might seem a little rabid to someone who hasn't kept up with the multitude of threads about this subject.

I'll try to explain what has been going on:

[/url]
Firstly, I'm not short tempered. I've lurked for a long, long while before saying aything. Time and again I've seen people ask for a generic driver only to have some parts of their question answered but the specific bit about a driver and WHY one cannot be released ignored. If I seem "rabid" it was only a release of frustration at having a very expensive SpacePilot sat at my left hand doing mundane CAD when it could be doing so much more. I understand, I always have, the standpoint of 3Dx and why they insist on the SDK but I wanted it spelt out WHY they could not and would not supply what a lot of users want. For me they have now done this. I'm not happy, not happy at all but there is nothing short of a career change into programming will fix it. 3Dx in their search for the perfect 6DOF controller for CAD and 3D actually stumbled upon the prefect all-round controller which could remove one's need to touch the keyboard at all in many applications. The reason I want a 3Dx written driver is simply, 3Dx designed the Space Pilot etc. They know it inside out. the RBC driver is homebrew at its best but homebrew nonetheless and I couldn't justify using it in my day job to input to software the company depends on for a living. I've tried it on my machine at home and could not get it to work, in fact its uninstallation has caused registry problems which now prevent the SP from installing on any other port. This is why for me it is important to have a 3Dx written driver, they have the expertise and in-house skill and knowledge to pull it off.

regards, Jeff.
Regards, Jeff.
ettore
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Post by ettore »

Guys, I said it before, I will repeat it... we hear you!

I think it's really cool that someone like user RBC9 stepped up and did such a great job for a feature that many desire. I must point out though that many other users like the simplicity of the current pref pane and we care for those too. Now it has been argued many times how these two approaches could/should live together and hence satisfy both worlds, so I won't go into that again. There's not much more to say. I'll only say that we do listen to your requests -- especially when they are more in-depth than a mere "please support app XYZ".

Now, I think this cool thread about music has been hi-jacked enough... let's go back to the original topic, shall we? :wink:
ettore pasquini
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jwick
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Post by jwick »

Now, I think this cool thread about music has been hi-jacked enough... let's go back to the original topic, shall we?
Yes, the tangential part of this thread needs to be moved to the "doesn't bode well" or the "RBC9 is great" threads, so we have one place to tell marketing to read :wink:
dagi
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Post by dagi »

please for midi in Your drivers pleeeeease!!! :D
i spent 3 days to convert spacenavigator to midi controler and always was something wrong :/ and i cant write my own program for this :(
in this case pleaaaaaseeeeee :D
ngomes
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Post by ngomes »

Hi Smiler,
What really gets me is the sheer arrogance of the way 3Dx folks reply to queries like the original poster made, saying what a great idea it is but pointing them to some softco that is never going to come up with support but always ignoring the "why can't 3Dx write us a driver" bit. What are you guys afraid of, success?
Ettore's is right on the spot: we're sorry if our words are taken as being arrogant. 3Dx participation in this Forum is regular precisely because we want to hear from our customers, the users of 3D mice.

This is a public Forum and there is only so much we can responsible comment on but we are around and we read what you post.

The Forum is also a direct channel that you have to reach technical staff at 3Dx. Some of us are software developers, for example. Others work in Technical Support.

Although we cannot change company policy, we can certainly provide our feedback to 3Dx management (which obviously also roams in the Forum). Your posts and comments go a great deal to educate us on our customers' wishes and needs but -- obviously enough -- it is not our only source of information.

I personally feel that it great that we have customers demanding features and changes to our software. It might not always be an enjoyable read but it really is quite something to see customers clearly understanding the value of our products and demanding that value from us.
Nuno Gomes
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